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 Post subject: Re: Sidemount Courses
PostPosted: Mon Dec 09, 2013 9:55 pm 
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Surya Prihadi wrote:
Scenario 1
Assume one weight down an AL80 using 1.5 kg, with tank weight on a single tank SM system.

Om Surya, tidak disarakan penggunaan weight pada tank di SM. Untuk itulah di training SM diajarkan bagaimana mensiasati problem buoyancy tangki ini dengan "gas management".

Sebagai sebuah "agama" baru di dunia diving recreational, SM butuh waktu dan keyakinan tersendiri agar menjadi warna yang membuat indah dunia diving di tanah air.


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 Post subject: Re: Sidemount Courses
PostPosted: Mon Dec 09, 2013 9:58 pm 
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DeepOcean wrote:

Hi Chris,

before we go further, i would like to apologies if any of my post offended you. in the same time i also would like to know which part of my posting look like hard selling on courses? i dont think my forum name is sidemount or my signature contain any sidemount stuff. you seen any?

I don't know, probably from your signature and website address and its content? Is Scubamart Indonesia not your branch? Are you not selling Razor system for SM ? Anyway, nothing's wrong with selling stuff here, everyone does, I do. But be prepared to answer questions in a professional manners if you or Scubamart Indonesia's comments are heavy on this new thing. Persuading is fine, but don't put it as if BM is obsolete as opposed to SM. (Avanza to Ferrari? Looks cool? Style? C'mon this kind of expressions don't really work here. Reading your previous posts in this thread, I surely got that impression.

since divers are questioning about the sidemount system, i post what i know and what i have gone through.. also as a certified RAZOR system user, those are my experience :smile:

if posting about sidemount is prohibited in forum, i would also apologies for sharing in my pass few post. jangan lebay deh :)) you can find that in Indo slang dictionary

anyway, for your question here are some answers.

#1. for myself, i use sidemount on both single and twin tanks.

#2. both single and double are equally balance. if you have ever sling a deco gas on one side be it one or two deco bottles, you dont get one side heavier dont you? event for double back mount diver, when they sling 2 deco bottles on the left or right, they can still balance up without having one side heavier. how do you know this? look at their buoyancy.. if they can stay during deco without any movement at all (event fins no move) thats mean they are properly rigged and well balanced. same goes to sidemount.. if you feel one side is heavier, the riggiing might be loose or too far away from you body, or too far back.. or too far to the front.. many possibilities. every sidemount diver have to adjust their sidemount equipment according to their body size and length. that same procedures goes to adjusting you double tank harness. for sidemount or deco bottle rigging, the closer the bottle to your body, the more balance you will get. and of course the tank not going to move here and there which will cause uncomfort during your dive. also, you have to breath from the right tank all the time because once your air pressure less than 100 bar, that is the time when one side get more floaty.. but as a certified diver, that should happen.
My question was, if you do dive SM on single at just one side, how is it more balance compare to a single tank sits right in the center of diver's back on a BM?

#3. regarding the streamline profile, a single backmount and sidemount i would say nothing much a different. it if you compare twin tank backmount and twin tank sidemount, the twin sidemount will achieve better streamline profile.
look at the photo below. if single to single comparison is nothing much different, wouldn't doubles to doubles also applies similar physics?

http://oi44.tinypic.com/90pvky.jpg

the double tank backmount diver are more squarish in shape because the tanks are at the back and above the backplate.
while the sidemount diver with twin tanks have his 2 tanks tightly hug to his body to mimimize drag and look at the shape, isnt it flatter than the back mount diver? width would be not much a different. unless the sidemount diver are not properly rigged or using incorrect config, then he might not be streamline as well. comparing the 2 photos, you can tell which is more hydrodynamic right? No, still need a valid proof on this hydrodynamic thing. Wider compare to squarer, with same tanks volume, same angle and alignment? And scooter comparison you mentioned you always faster than others with BM? So far I only hear this "more streamline' issue without a clear research.

more streamline, lesser effort on finning. you can see it when there is current.

#4. to maintain horizontal position, all bcd are the same. if you can control your buoyancy well, a jacket bcd can be neutrally buoyant as backplate or sidemount bcd and stay horizontal as long as you want :) . so this is depends on the diver himself. if you dont understand buoyancy, you will not be able to stay horizontal without moving for a minute even given the best equipment on the planet. know you buoyancy right, equipment and weight distribution right, plus a minor stretch on your back, voila! thats the magic! Being neutrally buoyant and being horizontal is two different things. You can be neutrally buoyant in any position if you wish, in any bcd styles. The question was on how each config contribute to maintaining horizontal position, which one is easier to do so, of course with buoyancy in mind :D

#5. refer to point #2,#3, & #4.

#6. refer to #2, #3, #4.

regarding my identity, i dont think i did anything wrong here. why should i post as consultant whereby i am a normal forum user just like you?? Again, refer to my comment on 1st paragraph above. Are you not an entity of selling the products ? So what you say here if related direct/indirect to the products, normatively puts you for consultancies. It's not the rule. It's what the viewers here expect from a product seller.

ultimately, when we dive we have fun. i do share the same thing with my friends or or any dive buddy i bump into. if the thing we use is good, people can see and judge.

sidemount is for people who want to travel light, flexibilty and dive with style. we dont have to compare with backmount,you did compare previously, that's why I'm asking all these questions :D because most of the sidemount diver are from backmount. that's including myself. i still have my OMS 30lbs single red bladder with plates, my hollis 40 lbs donuts twin bladder, and a Light Monkey 40lbs twin bladder (brand new). i use my twin to learn my advanced wreck penetration back then. but now i use my sidemount because i think it is more effective in cave, in wrecks, in open water, and also while videoing underwater.

i hope all the above clarify your queries. happy diving.. Cheers buddy! ;)

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 Post subject: Re: Sidemount Courses
PostPosted: Mon Dec 09, 2013 10:08 pm 
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Wah, pas gw ngetik postingan diatas, ternyata Om Surya juga lagi bedah detail.

I'm not against Sidemount, bear in mind. I'm one of the interesteds :D

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 Post subject: Re: Sidemount Courses
PostPosted: Mon Dec 09, 2013 10:47 pm 
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rendra wrote:
4. PADI TecRec Blog: http://tecrec.padi.com/2011/10/27/testi ... er-course/

It's a good info as it was written in relation to the SM course research... Please do have a look at the blog's comments so you will understand the discussion... (I'm personally interested and curious in Ken Charlesworth's comment) ... read on... :)

Sekadar menambahkan, komentar Ken cukup relevan pada saat itu di mana kurikulum PADI SM Diver masih dalam tahap prototype, dan masukan positif dari segala komentar akan ditampung sebagai salah satu acuan penyempurnaan kurikulumnya sebelum resmi diluncurkan. Dan satu tahun kemudian sejak prototype diluncurkan, PADI SM Diver telah resmi rilis dan berkembang menjadi salah satu bidang diving di PADi yang popular. Silahkan lihat blog ini http://www.padi.com/blog/2013/03/04/padi-recreational-sidemount/ untuk menambah wawasan.

Semoga tambahan informasi ini dapat memberikan informasi soal PADI SM yg lebih utuh.

Quote:
PS: BBX will host a SM diving trial session this December for Forum Selam members, please PM me to register (limited slots)

Nah, ini salah satu langkah nyata untuk menambah warna dunia diving di Indonesia...urusan nanti ternyata warnanya kurang sreg di hati, itu masalah pilihan. good job om Ronny, sukses buat acaranya!


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 Post subject: Re: Sidemount Courses
PostPosted: Mon Dec 09, 2013 11:04 pm 
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Surya Prihadi wrote:
I am an old fashion diver , simple diver.
I don't even like to strap on a aluminum 100 CF tank or anything bigger than standard single AL80. No pony, nothing. The added water drag value is not worth it for me.

Here is my take on the logic of Side Mount IF Single tank and alu tank 80CF, for recreational user.
In Indonesia, alu 80CF Luxfer or Catalina rule, its called AL80. 99% dive center use this 80 cubic feet ( actually 77.4 cubic feet ) AL80, which has the following characteristic :

In Sea water with standard valve

At 207 BAR/ 3,000 PSI , buoyancy is 635 grams negative
At 153 BAR / 1,500 psi, bouyancy is 681 grams POSITIVE
At 34 BAR / 500 psi, buoyancy is 1,543 grams POSITIVE

To see true balance of a SM system with a single AL80, one has to see it under these 3 tanks capacity consideration while diver in a horizontal position hoovering, static. Forward motion brings stability, like how we ride bikes.

Gravity works underwater, regardless.
No matter how a single tank set up on SM is done, it can never have the balance of a back mounted single AL80 center of gravity effect from full tank to empty tank.......while diver in horizontal position, static.


Scenario 1
Assume one weight down an AL80 using 1.5 kg, with tank weight on a single tank SM system.
During the first few minutes of the dive the the SM diver will have NEGATIVE 2kg to one side of his/her body where the tank is. No video can show this, but the diver will feel one sided downforce at work with full AL80 tank, more pronounced in a static horizontal position.

Scenario 2
Assume the 1.5kg weight is placed elsewhere......but where best it be placed ?...to offset the changing dynamics of a downforce of 635 grams all the way to an uplift force of 1,543 grams ...where this dynamic is not located at the center of the gravity axis, which is the diver spine or back

As DeepOcean pointed out "for sidemount or deco bottle rigging, the closer the bottle to your body, the more balance you will get." ,exactly the same reason I said center of gravity axis, is our mid body position and hence single tank is mounted at the back to benefit best the physic of gravity.

In a double tank SM config, Scenario 1 & 2 won't matter much, I guess.

An AL80 tank, due to the tank valve, when air is depleted down to 100 BAR or less and uplift force comes into play, the bottom of the tank is the section which will float first.

In a small scale of things, diver's trim is no different than a camera if one wants a camera to be perfectly balanced.
The only different is, camera is almost static in its buoyancy, once set correct, as it does not have to deal with downforce of 635 grams all the way to an uplift force of 1,543 grams of an AL80 scuba tank.

In a recreational diving, single tank AL80.........its hard to beat the old back mounted tank config simplicity and its well behaved reponse towards the downforce of 635 grams all the way to an uplift force of 1,543 grams of an AL80 scuba tank.......once trimming is done right. All due to the laws of physic. Keep all "variable weight" as center axis as possible. A tank and a BCD bladder are the only two mechanical device termed as "variable weight" in our scuba gear. The beauty of us divers is, we move a lot in water, as I pointed out.....motion bring stability. We also do micro kicking to compensate for various buoyancy forces, not that we realize we are doing it but its an automatic reponse.

For UW photo dudes doing macro and needing to position his/her body to safe ground hugging limit on a reef, having another possible reef killer on his/her side called a tank, is surely not a wise option.

Streamlining :
During forward motion against a moving body of water, total frontal surface area is the most important drag factor as the calculation of co-efficient of drag matters a lot on frontal surface area. We divers are too slow in velocity to worry of other involved calculation parameters, so total frontal surface area is the key. Do the math on this and you will be fine.

In the end various available configurations has their beneficial values, if used in the most suiable scenario as their intended design. So there is no right or wrong, but more of suitability of configuration A, B or C for the diver's intended use in A, B, C environments or needs.

So be happy that there is a new gear to play with called a Side Mount system :mrgreen: , ain't we all a dive gear junkie ?

.



wow.. nice write up.

to add on, dont forget the tank valves, you first stage, harness.. etc.. everything comes with weight. especially the first stage and your wetsuit, will effect on the balance of a sidemount diver, tank is a big part but luckily we all use alu tank here. every pieces of equipment will effect your buoyancy.. and that is why since the beginning, i keep mentioning on correct set up for sidemount.. it is not just "hook and go".

on your scenario 1, what i usually do is compensate the negative of the tank by using any of you equipment.. air bubble.. your bolt snap.. your power inflator.. etc. everything balanced. and another things that make it work even better is your foot..

i have 2 photos of myself which you can see well balanced in single tank sidemount.

http://oi39.tinypic.com/2dkmgx5.jpg


scenario 2, where to put is depends on your body and equipment characteristic.. which you have to check it know and know your equipment more :)

and you talked about the camera setting, yes! thats the thing we are talking about.. the camera and our body is exactly the same.. fine how to balance up :). same goes to your micro kicking. thats your muscles memory.

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 Post subject: Re: Sidemount Courses
PostPosted: Mon Dec 09, 2013 11:36 pm 
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Location: Singapore
Christo del Mar wrote:
DeepOcean wrote:

Hi Chris,

before we go further, i would like to apologies if any of my post offended you. in the same time i also would like to know which part of my posting look like hard selling on courses? i dont think my forum name is sidemount or my signature contain any sidemount stuff. you seen any?

I don't know, probably from your signature and website address and its content? Is Scubamart Indonesia not your branch? Are you not selling Razor system for SM ? Anyway, nothing's wrong with selling stuff here, everyone does, I do. But be prepared to answer questions in a professional manners if you or Scubamart Indonesia's comments are heavy on this new thing. Persuading is fine, but don't put it as if BM is obsolete as opposed to SM. (Avanza to Ferrari? Looks cool? Style? C'mon this kind of expressions don't really work here. Reading your previous posts in this thread, I surely got that impression.

since divers are questioning about the sidemount system, i post what i know and what i have gone through.. also as a certified RAZOR system user, those are my experience :smile:

if posting about sidemount is prohibited in forum, i would also apologies for sharing in my pass few post. jangan lebay deh :)) you can find that in Indo slang dictionary

anyway, for your question here are some answers.

#1. for myself, i use sidemount on both single and twin tanks.

#2. both single and double are equally balance. if you have ever sling a deco gas on one side be it one or two deco bottles, you dont get one side heavier dont you? event for double back mount diver, when they sling 2 deco bottles on the left or right, they can still balance up without having one side heavier. how do you know this? look at their buoyancy.. if they can stay during deco without any movement at all (event fins no move) thats mean they are properly rigged and well balanced. same goes to sidemount.. if you feel one side is heavier, the riggiing might be loose or too far away from you body, or too far back.. or too far to the front.. many possibilities. every sidemount diver have to adjust their sidemount equipment according to their body size and length. that same procedures goes to adjusting you double tank harness. for sidemount or deco bottle rigging, the closer the bottle to your body, the more balance you will get. and of course the tank not going to move here and there which will cause uncomfort during your dive. also, you have to breath from the right tank all the time because once your air pressure less than 100 bar, that is the time when one side get more floaty.. but as a certified diver, that should happen.
My question was, if you do dive SM on single at just one side, how is it more balance compare to a single tank sits right in the center of diver's back on a BM?

#3. regarding the streamline profile, a single backmount and sidemount i would say nothing much a different. it if you compare twin tank backmount and twin tank sidemount, the twin sidemount will achieve better streamline profile.
look at the photo below. if single to single comparison is nothing much different, wouldn't doubles to doubles also applies similar physics?

http://oi44.tinypic.com/90pvky.jpg

the double tank backmount diver are more squarish in shape because the tanks are at the back and above the backplate.
while the sidemount diver with twin tanks have his 2 tanks tightly hug to his body to mimimize drag and look at the shape, isnt it flatter than the back mount diver? width would be not much a different. unless the sidemount diver are not properly rigged or using incorrect config, then he might not be streamline as well. comparing the 2 photos, you can tell which is more hydrodynamic right? No, still need a valid proof on this hydrodynamic thing. Wider compare to squarer, with same tanks volume, same angle and alignment? And scooter comparison you mentioned you always faster than others with BM? So far I only hear this "more streamline' issue without a clear research.

more streamline, lesser effort on finning. you can see it when there is current.

#4. to maintain horizontal position, all bcd are the same. if you can control your buoyancy well, a jacket bcd can be neutrally buoyant as backplate or sidemount bcd and stay horizontal as long as you want :) . so this is depends on the diver himself. if you dont understand buoyancy, you will not be able to stay horizontal without moving for a minute even given the best equipment on the planet. know you buoyancy right, equipment and weight distribution right, plus a minor stretch on your back, voila! thats the magic! Being neutrally buoyant and being horizontal is two different things. You can be neutrally buoyant in any position if you wish, in any bcd styles. The question was on how each config contribute to maintaining horizontal position, which one is easier to do so, of course with buoyancy in mind :D

#5. refer to point #2,#3, & #4.

#6. refer to #2, #3, #4.

regarding my identity, i dont think i did anything wrong here. why should i post as consultant whereby i am a normal forum user just like you?? Again, refer to my comment on 1st paragraph above. Are you not an entity of selling the products ? So what you say here if related direct/indirect to the products, normatively puts you for consultancies. It's not the rule. It's what the viewers here expect from a product seller.

ultimately, when we dive we have fun. i do share the same thing with my friends or or any dive buddy i bump into. if the thing we use is good, people can see and judge.

sidemount is for people who want to travel light, flexibilty and dive with style. we dont have to compare with backmount,you did compare previously, that's why I'm asking all these questions :D because most of the sidemount diver are from backmount. that's including myself. i still have my OMS 30lbs single red bladder with plates, my hollis 40 lbs donuts twin bladder, and a Light Monkey 40lbs twin bladder (brand new). i use my twin to learn my advanced wreck penetration back then. but now i use my sidemount because i think it is more effective in cave, in wrecks, in open water, and also while videoing underwater.

i hope all the above clarify your queries. happy diving.. Cheers buddy! ;)


Hi Christ,

my signature might be a website, but am i giving honest comment on sm? yes no? if you think what i have commented are wrong, please point it out, we would like to have this kind of discussion because it is a learning process. scubamart is not a branch of Deep Ocean Supplies. Please get your fact right. Scubamart are the reseller of Deep Ocean Supplies.

ferrari and avanza is just an example just in case you dont get it.

aku gak perlu cari di dictionary kok.. emangnya udah orang indonesia :)


answer your question for the second time, backmount and sidemount does not effect my balance because of equipment placing.

on your #3, i think you should take a look on the photo one more time and learn hydrodynamic works. give it a try and you will know. that is the only proof i can show you. if you refuse to belief, there is nothing much i can do for you. anyway, hydrodynamic work almost similar to aerodynamic. have you seen an aeroplane with squarish shape fly? an aeroplane with a very side stretch wings fly.. why?? you got it?

on maintaining the horizontal position, sm is easier to achieve because of the weight distribution. if you want to find out more, maybe your can approach any SM instructor to teach you. other than scubamart, there is another instructor in Bali call SF Chong. If you wish to learn from him i can link you up with him.


on my question on either im a seller or not, yes, our business is selling diving equipment. but we more to distribute to businesses rather than sell to end user. that's Deep Ocean Supplies core business. so you were saying we cannot talk about sidemount because we are selling sidemount products? think my comments on sidemount are being fair.. since you have visited our web, i believe you can see there is Deep Ocean Supplies BM backplate system. it is a 30lbs bladder. no intention to push sidemount to anyone. fine if people would like to use backmount.. no harm right?? it is a choice if diver choose sidemount. anyway, there are already plenty of SM divers in Bali.

may i ask why you are so protective over bm? are you related to any backplate manufacturer? if you find it too personal you can ignore?

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 Post subject: Re: Sidemount Courses
PostPosted: Tue Dec 10, 2013 2:09 am 
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Posts: 73
DeepOcean wrote:

Hi Christ,

my signature might be a website, but am i giving honest comment on sm? yes no? if you think what i have commented are wrong, please point it out, we would like to have this kind of discussion because it is a learning process. scubamart is not a branch of Deep Ocean Supplies. Please get your fact right. Scubamart are the reseller of Deep Ocean Supplies.

ferrari and avanza is just an example just in case you dont get it.

aku gak perlu cari di dictionary kok.. emangnya udah orang indonesia :)


answer your question for the second time, backmount and sidemount does not effect my balance because of equipment placing.

on your #3, i think you should take a look on the photo one more time and learn hydrodynamic works. give it a try and you will know. that is the only proof i can show you. if you refuse to belief, there is nothing much i can do for you. anyway, hydrodynamic work almost similar to aerodynamic. have you seen an aeroplane with squarish shape fly? an aeroplane with a very side stretch wings fly.. why?? you got it?

on maintaining the horizontal position, sm is easier to achieve because of the weight distribution. if you want to find out more, maybe your can approach any SM instructor to teach you. other than scubamart, there is another instructor in Bali call SF Chong. If you wish to learn from him i can link you up with him.


on my question on either im a seller or not, yes, our business is selling diving equipment. but we more to distribute to businesses rather than sell to end user. that's Deep Ocean Supplies core business. so you were saying we cannot talk about sidemount because we are selling sidemount products? think my comments on sidemount are being fair.. since you have visited our web, i believe you can see there is Deep Ocean Supplies BM backplate system. it is a 30lbs bladder. no intention to push sidemount to anyone. fine if people would like to use backmount.. no harm right?? it is a choice if diver choose sidemount. anyway, there are already plenty of SM divers in Bali.


Hi guys,
Nice that the thread now reached 6 pages and 1500+ views :D
To ice down the discussion a bit, I would suggest that we forget who's behind the keyboard and stay focused on discussing the ideas :ymhug:

Quote:
may i ask why you are so protective over bm? are you related to any backplate manufacturer? if you find it too personal you can ignore?


To respond on this, I would say the challenge of the SM system mainly raised up from the question: why do we need sidemount system while backmount system can still get the job (diving) done?

The usual response, would be:
1. better trim, which, in my opinion, with correct weighting and weight distribution in BM, it is no less difficult
2. better streamlined, which, in my opinion, more or less the same with BM. Rarely we faced the situation when "more streamlined diver" have real advantage over "less streamlined diver" (I'm talking about open water dives).
3. looks cooler, which, in my opinion, BM divers with perfect buoyancy control still sexier :D.
4. Easy to manipulate tank valves (life support equipment), which, in my opinion, for rec divers with single tank, do we really need to manipulate the tank valve? In recreational dives, if something happened to your gas supply (example: regulator free flows), just head to the surface, grab buddy octopus if needed for gas supply, and abort the dives.

While pointing out that, in my opinion, SM has additional disadvantages:
1. Additional task loading of handling the tanks - maybe not real problem in single SM diving, but on twin tank diving, additional task loading coming from the need to alternate breathe from each of the tanks to balance the rig/system. Yes, with proper training and practice this risk will be less, but still, it's additional task diver must do, while on BM the diver don't have this task. CMIIW.
2. Unused space on your back - for me it's like putting your luggage on the sides of your car while you got open space on the top of your car :D
3. Cluster of tanks on the chest, related to point 2 - it's easier to carry multiple tanks with BM since for travel/backgas we put it conveniently on our back, and left chest d-ring will be used only to carry deco tanks. Less risk to breathe wrong gas mix, although this also can be minimized by good tank marking.
3. Preparing the tank for diving, in my opinion, it's lot easier switching tank with BM BCD - open the camband, lift the BCD, grab new tank, put down the camband, clamp close the camband - and in Indonesia, the boatsman can do it for you!

I do agree though, on some point:
1. Easier/lighter to put on the tanks for doubles set - BM twinset is heavy! I got no problem once it gets into my back, but it's not easy for me to lift off the twinset from ground into bench. I think i need to work out more :D
2. For tech diving in Indonesia, not all places have manifolded twinset readily available.

All above is my opinion, please correct me if I'm wrong.
As we all are thinking divers and share extreme affection to our sport, I think it is quite beneficial to our community to discuss different kind of configuration, and maybe in the end, agree to disagree on some points.

And no, I'm not affiliated to any brand or dive shops :D. I'm all in to support my beloved country diving business.


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 Post subject: Re: Sidemount Courses
PostPosted: Tue Dec 10, 2013 7:42 am 
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Hello everyone, Heli, Mike...

Now I'm writing as moderator of this forum..

1. Introducing products and services are welcome in this forum. Introducing means we share everything that might be of interest of the forum member, provide clear information. It's no harm discussing details, the more information the better in this instance. So, everyone are welcome to do this. Reckon why there is no slot for adverts in this forum? We want to stay neutral. Everyone are welcome to introduce any brands here through the right forum.

2. This forum has a good reputation as an information resource for divers. We want everyone to gain knowledge, share good and bad stories, provide insights, tips and tricks, anything. This is why, a short topic title, or a single paragraph post may become a hot topic. Everyone has their rights to ask and get answers.

3. So please continue with this topic as it now started to become a good topic to follow...

4. There are many dive pros and experienced divers here, as well as the noobs. It has been our culture that these classification should not become a barrier in communication. In this forum everyone shares. The pros will learn a lot from the noobs experience, and the other way around. You are not the only person that has dived in mexico or florida, nor you can say that SM is better than BM. That's a misleading information. You guys are not the first ones to use SM configuration, nor have experienced long time diving in SM configuration. This is why we have such a long thread, this forum is about sharing.

5. Forum Selam moderators, from time to time will host an event to facilitate or answer the curiousity of members. So in this instance, I have proposed an SM tryout dive in pool so everyone interested can try their first experience.

Mike, as I said, I'm not against SM configuration. I will use the configuration when the environment requires me so. Regarding the SM try dives, I'm not conducting a course nor selling it. BBX is just facilitating a tryout, and in that tryout we will do many test scenarios following this topic threads. We will do an SM vs BM challenge in that event, so the benefits, advantages and disadvantages becomes clear. It's a 'try and believe it' kind of thing.

You are welcome to join this tryout and provide the SM experience. At the moment the confirmed provider is an SSI/SDI instructor with SM training rating who is a fan of SM configuration. I do advise you to join the tryout dive :smile:

cheers!
rendra

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 Post subject: Re: Sidemount Courses
PostPosted: Tue Dec 10, 2013 8:01 am 
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Posts: 264
Location: Jakarta, Indonesia
Wooowww ... Ini topik jd makin panjang yee, jd pengen komen. Sori ya sy males pake bhs inggris, krn sy org indo asli.

- sy sama dgn mbah Surya dan om Chris, penggemar BM. Jg setuju sama Rendra bahwa diving yang baik adalah masalah attitude dan behaviour.

- Saya tdk anti SM, tp belon kepikiran juga mau nyoba, ngurusin kerjaan , ngelola dive center, ngajar diving ud cukup menguras waktu. Mungkin kapan kapan kl adavkesempatan boleh jg nyobain.

- Semua org blh punya pendapat masing masing mana yg terbaik buat mereka sendiri.

- Buat kalian yg mau promosi atw mau jualan rasa rasanya sah sah aja di forum ini, yg ptg adlh jgn saling menjelekkan atw menjatuhkan satu sama lain.

Dunia diving di indo kaga gede gede amat, suatu hari kita pasti akan saling ketemu ...
Mari sama sama kita buat diving di indonesia makin menarik, makin luas dan makin banyak penggemarnya.

Segitu ajah dehh .. Maap kl kurang pas, namanya jg penyelam pemula .. Maap ya suhu suhu yg ada disini.

Safe dive daahhh :ymhug: :ymapplause:

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 Post subject: Re: Sidemount Courses
PostPosted: Tue Dec 10, 2013 8:19 am 
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Joined: Thu Jul 09, 2009 5:51 pm
Posts: 1571
Location: Jakarta
BotolKecap wrote:
rendra wrote:
4. PADI TecRec Blog: http://tecrec.padi.com/2011/10/27/testi ... er-course/

It's a good info as it was written in relation to the SM course research... Please do have a look at the blog's comments so you will understand the discussion... (I'm personally interested and curious in Ken Charlesworth's comment) ... read on... :)

Sekadar menambahkan, komentar Ken cukup relevan pada saat itu di mana kurikulum PADI SM Diver masih dalam tahap prototype, dan masukan positif dari segala komentar akan ditampung sebagai salah satu acuan penyempurnaan kurikulumnya sebelum resmi diluncurkan. Dan satu tahun kemudian sejak prototype diluncurkan, PADI SM Diver telah resmi rilis dan berkembang menjadi salah satu bidang diving di PADi yang popular. Silahkan lihat blog ini http://www.padi.com/blog/2013/03/04/padi-recreational-sidemount/ untuk menambah wawasan.

Semoga tambahan informasi ini dapat memberikan informasi soal PADI SM yg lebih utuh.

Quote:
PS: BBX will host a SM diving trial session this December for Forum Selam members, please PM me to register (limited slots)

Nah, ini salah satu langkah nyata untuk menambah warna dunia diving di Indonesia...urusan nanti ternyata warnanya kurang sreg di hati, itu masalah pilihan. good job om Ronny, sukses buat acaranya!


Again, om BotolKecap, this is about sharing... Think big, think deep. Dig information deep so we know what to keep. Kita harus jadi orang yang broadminded, have curiousity. That's the good way to gain good knowledge. Textbook is one thing, but in real life, we can't rely only on one textbook. Textbooks are revised from time to time. Kalau ambil contoh PADI, dari waktu ke waktu revisi dan penegasan disampaikan melalui training bulletin kan?

Nah, om BK ini salah satu contoh instruktur yang baik, rajin mengikuti perkembangan training bulletin PADI. Tidak semua instruktur cukup rajin melakukan hal ini. Keep up the goodwork! :D

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 Post subject: Re: Sidemount Courses
PostPosted: Tue Dec 10, 2013 8:40 am 
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Joined: Tue Jul 18, 2006 9:25 am
Posts: 399
Location: Sanur - Bali
DeepOcean wrote:

Hi Christ,

my signature might be a website, but am i giving honest comment on sm? yes no? if you think what i have commented are wrong, please point it out, we would like to have this kind of discussion because it is a learning process. scubamart is not a branch of Deep Ocean Supplies. Please get your fact right. Scubamart are the reseller of Deep Ocean Supplies. Oops, my bad if it's a reseller not the branch.

ferrari and avanza is just an example just in case you dont get it. still don't get it you use that for comparison between SM & BM kan? :D So by all means, which one is the Ferrari then?

aku gak perlu cari di dictionary kok.. emangnya udah orang indonesia :)


answer your question for the second time, backmount and sidemount does not effect my balance because of equipment placing.

on your #3, i think you should take a look on the photo one more time and learn hydrodynamic works. give it a try and you will know. that is the only proof i can show you. if you refuse to belief, there is nothing much i can do for you. anyway, hydrodynamic work almost similar to aerodynamic. have you seen an aeroplane with squarish shape fly? an aeroplane with a very side stretch wings fly.. why?? you got it? As Om Surya pointed above, our velocity as divers in the water don't really put us into effect (sorry kalo rephrase)

on maintaining the horizontal position, sm is easier to achieve because of the weight distribution. if you want to find out more, maybe your can approach any SM instructor to teach you. other than scubamart, there is another instructor in Bali call SF Chong. If you wish to learn from him i can link you up with him.


on my question on either im a seller or not, yes, our business is selling diving equipment. but we more to distribute to businesses rather than sell to end user. that's Deep Ocean Supplies core business. so you were saying we cannot talk about sidemount because we are selling sidemount products? think my comments on sidemount are being fair.. since you have visited our web, i believe you can see there is Deep Ocean Supplies BM backplate system. it is a 30lbs bladder. no intention to push sidemount to anyone. fine if people would like to use backmount.. no harm right?? it is a choice if diver choose sidemount. anyway, there are already plenty of SM divers in Bali. No drama. I've never mentioned anything or have forbid you talking or reviewing or selling whatever system. It's some of the reviews and comments on a particular topic of SM/BM here that tickled me to question & challenge it. And your review and Mike's, as from my personal opinion, were still using the same " debatable points" of SM over BM: more streamline, more easier, more light, looks cooler, more stylish, sexier, plis deh ah... doktrin itu namanya :D

may i ask why you are so protective over bm? are you related to any backplate manufacturer? if you find it too personal you can ignore? where in this forum have I being protective over BM, while I put myself as a newbie on SM, and looking for enlightened, not just typical marketing mantras I used to hear without valid & proven datas, just to make the products looks cooler/better than existing ones? If a student challenges the teacher, or an inexperience challenges the experience, wouldn't it be wiser for the the teacher to fill the student's empty cup with valid knowledge? And if the student is an advanced student, would the teacher be even more cognitive? I'm the interested one, a course is coming for me soon, and guess what? it's a Sidemount Course, coz I THINK I know why I need it, as a complimentary to the existing BM and to my specific dive purpose :D



Cheers
Chris

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 Post subject: Re: Sidemount Courses
PostPosted: Tue Dec 10, 2013 10:14 am 
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Joined: Thu Aug 06, 2009 3:03 am
Posts: 1022
Location: Gili Trawangan
Kalo emang PaDI bilang SM adalah menambah safety dan memperbaiki drpd BM dan semua lbh mudah dipelajari nah kenapa PADI untuk open warer kok semua pake BM yah. Mungkin SSI, Padi, NAUI, CMAS blm pada tau kl SM lnh safe dan lbh mudah yah.

Tapi gak papa lah ini kan pembelajaran buat kita semua. Ayo om mike, deepsea, botol kecap, om hantu, rendra, christo semua dibuatin trial SM di kolam supaya blajar ara yg pake sm yg bener

Nb: kl sm gak ada integrated weight dong yah?

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 Post subject: Re: Sidemount Courses
PostPosted: Tue Dec 10, 2013 11:50 am 
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Joined: Fri Mar 20, 2009 11:39 pm
Posts: 913
Location: Jakarta
BotolKecap wrote:
Surya Prihadi wrote:
Scenario 1
Assume one weight down an AL80 using 1.5 kg, with tank weight on a single tank SM system.

Om Surya, tidak disarakan penggunaan weight pada tank di SM. Untuk itulah di training SM diajarkan bagaimana mensiasati problem buoyancy tangki ini dengan "gas management".



OK deh Om BK.


Now back to the physic question for SM Guru-s.

As I said, the two devices/gears which effect bouyancy because they are capable of variable buoyancy are the scuba tank AL80 and the BCD. BCD bouyancy on demand and user adjustable, while the AL80 is air capacity dependent. Please observe the variable bouyancy thingy.

Positive bouyancy speak of the entire uplift force.
Negative bouyancy speak of the entire downforce.

Proper trim speak of 3 forces needing to be trimmed......in order to....
Image
......in order to achieve a stable perfect bouyancy in horizontal position and static.

Perfect trim is a good friend of a perfect bouyancy.
One has to first achieve perfect bouyancy, the trim is the fine tuning to prevent roll and pitch.
Yaw is not an issue with a diver.

A diver underwater, has to fight the forces of uplift of an empty AL80 or downforce of a full AL80, will look like the two diaghrams below.

The problem with side mount when using a single AL80, the way I see it...... is the center of Lift ( CL ) and Center of DownForce CdF, in that particular config has two axis or fulcrum point. A BCD lies in the best position, the fulcrum of the diver, mid point. The side mounted AL80 lies to one side, and due to its variable lift at different tank state of fill, it has its own lift and downforce value, depending how full or depleted the tank is during the dive. No denying this fact.

Attachment:
analogy 1 resize.jpg

BCD-Bi = Back Inflated BCD
CL = Center of Lift
CdF = Center of DownForce
Green and red dotted lines are center of axis.


.
Attachment:
analogy 2 resize.jpg


There is no gas management in a single AL80 tank, how can there be a gas management if the source is a single tank ? I keep speaking of single AL80 tank.

Show me mathematically with a diaghram, on how to achieve state of proper equilibrium from full tank to empty tank ( total 2.1 kg worth of variable ) of single AL80 on a side mount, without shifting weights on the diver to achieve a stable no ROLL condition while static and in horizontal hoovering. I want to learn the science of it, as it would be amazing.

What will be fun to do is this :

SM Guru and BM Guru, we take both to the pool.
Both using AL80 single tank , 200 BAR. No tank boot, no tank mesh.
Both to wear full neoprene wetsuit at least 2mm, no thicker than 3mm. No need hood.
Depth will be 3 meter.
Get both to hoover horizontal at 200 BAR, 140 BAR, 80 BAR and 30 BAR tank pressure, each session at 90 seconds.
Totally breathing control only allowed. No body, hands, or fin movement. Both hands under the chin.
Fins, 90 degrees OK, straight OK, just don't ever kick or change the style.
See who has a better roll and pitch stability.

Winner gets bragging rights... :mrgreen:
Looser buy lunch... :D


SP.


You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

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 Post subject: Re: Sidemount Courses
PostPosted: Tue Dec 10, 2013 11:54 am 
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Joined: Sat Mar 24, 2012 2:52 am
Posts: 36
Location: Singapore
rendra wrote:
Hello everyone, Heli, Mike...

Now I'm writing as moderator of this forum..

1. Introducing products and services are welcome in this forum. Introducing means we share everything that might be of interest of the forum member, provide clear information. It's no harm discussing details, the more information the better in this instance. So, everyone are welcome to do this. Reckon why there is no slot for adverts in this forum? We want to stay neutral. Everyone are welcome to introduce any brands here through the right forum.

2. This forum has a good reputation as an information resource for divers. We want everyone to gain knowledge, share good and bad stories, provide insights, tips and tricks, anything. This is why, a short topic title, or a single paragraph post may become a hot topic. Everyone has their rights to ask and get answers.

3. So please continue with this topic as it now started to become a good topic to follow...

4. There are many dive pros and experienced divers here, as well as the noobs. It has been our culture that these classification should not become a barrier in communication. In this forum everyone shares. The pros will learn a lot from the noobs experience, and the other way around. You are not the only person that has dived in mexico or florida, nor you can say that SM is better than BM. That's a misleading information. You guys are not the first ones to use SM configuration, nor have experienced long time diving in SM configuration. This is why we have such a long thread, this forum is about sharing.

5. Forum Selam moderators, from time to time will host an event to facilitate or answer the curiousity of members. So in this instance, I have proposed an SM tryout dive in pool so everyone interested can try their first experience.

Mike, as I said, I'm not against SM configuration. I will use the configuration when the environment requires me so. Regarding the SM try dives, I'm not conducting a course nor selling it. BBX is just facilitating a tryout, and in that tryout we will do many test scenarios following this topic threads. We will do an SM vs BM challenge in that event, so the benefits, advantages and disadvantages becomes clear. It's a 'try and believe it' kind of thing.

You are welcome to join this tryout and provide the SM experience. At the moment the confirmed provider is an SSI/SDI instructor with SM training rating who is a fan of SM configuration. I do advise you to join the tryout dive :smile:

cheers!
rendra



yes rendra, i do agree with what you said. it will be good if there will be trial class.. and like what you said, comparing it in the pool we will be able to learn much more together.

on the other hand, i do not claim SM are better than BM as a whole, if you read my comment properly, what i have type out is "i personal feel (in my opinion)" and that is my opinion about sidemount. for others it might be BM are better. it is depends on you own liking and comfort level :smile: as an extra, i did not claim that i am the first one to went florida? or mexico? i did saw a lot of asian there.

and yes, you are right, like what mike have mentioned, SM config are the traditional equipment for dry/wet cave explorer. we are not the first to use sidemount. Sidemount has been existing for ages, just recently it become popular again. as you can see, the Razor system are created not long ago too, but the course system are properly done by certified people with real life experience. as a certified diver who learn from the right source, that is our opinion and experiences. if you think that what i have type in forum are incorrect, you might want to verify at the following place.

http://www.gosidemount.com/contact/


and btw, i have saw you involves in a few cave exploration here indonesia? hope i can tag along one day if you have such exploration. i can use backmount if you require me to do so :)

Christo del Mar wrote:
DeepOcean wrote:

Hi Christ,

my signature might be a website, but am i giving honest comment on sm? yes no? if you think what i have commented are wrong, please point it out, we would like to have this kind of discussion because it is a learning process. scubamart is not a branch of Deep Ocean Supplies. Please get your fact right. Scubamart are the reseller of Deep Ocean Supplies. Oops, my bad if it's a reseller not the branch.

ferrari and avanza is just an example just in case you dont get it. still don't get it you use that for comparison between SM & BM kan? :D So by all means, which one is the Ferrari then?

aku gak perlu cari di dictionary kok.. emangnya udah orang indonesia :)


answer your question for the second time, backmount and sidemount does not effect my balance because of equipment placing.

on your #3, i think you should take a look on the photo one more time and learn hydrodynamic works. give it a try and you will know. that is the only proof i can show you. if you refuse to belief, there is nothing much i can do for you. anyway, hydrodynamic work almost similar to aerodynamic. have you seen an aeroplane with squarish shape fly? an aeroplane with a very side stretch wings fly.. why?? you got it? As Om Surya pointed above, our velocity as divers in the water don't really put us into effect (sorry kalo rephrase)

on maintaining the horizontal position, sm is easier to achieve because of the weight distribution. if you want to find out more, maybe your can approach any SM instructor to teach you. other than scubamart, there is another instructor in Bali call SF Chong. If you wish to learn from him i can link you up with him.


on my question on either im a seller or not, yes, our business is selling diving equipment. but we more to distribute to businesses rather than sell to end user. that's Deep Ocean Supplies core business. so you were saying we cannot talk about sidemount because we are selling sidemount products? think my comments on sidemount are being fair.. since you have visited our web, i believe you can see there is Deep Ocean Supplies BM backplate system. it is a 30lbs bladder. no intention to push sidemount to anyone. fine if people would like to use backmount.. no harm right?? it is a choice if diver choose sidemount. anyway, there are already plenty of SM divers in Bali. No drama. I've never mentioned anything or have forbid you talking or reviewing or selling whatever system. It's some of the reviews and comments on a particular topic of SM/BM here that tickled me to question & challenge it. And your review and Mike's, as from my personal opinion, were still using the same " debatable points" of SM over BM: more streamline, more easier, more light, looks cooler, more stylish, sexier, plis deh ah... doktrin itu namanya :D

may i ask why you are so protective over bm? are you related to any backplate manufacturer? if you find it too personal you can ignore? where in this forum have I being protective over BM, while I put myself as a newbie on SM, and looking for enlightened, not just typical marketing mantras I used to hear without valid & proven datas, just to make the products looks cooler/better than existing ones? If a student challenges the teacher, or an inexperience challenges the experience, wouldn't it be wiser for the the teacher to fill the student's empty cup with valid knowledge? And if the student is an advanced student, would the teacher be even more cognitive? I'm the interested one, a course is coming for me soon, and guess what? it's a Sidemount Course, coz I THINK I know why I need it, as a complimentary to the existing BM and to my specific dive purpose :D



Cheers
Chris


Hi Christ,

back to the topic, as what rendra mentioned we should steer back to the original topic. again, my apologies if any of my words caused any incomfort in you.

and yes, with questions like yours, it always make the instructors to think further and better improvise their flows if there is any. I do appreciate all the comments and question you have write up. on your debatable point, this is much depends on personal preference. there is no one single product that can satisfy everybody.

for the last point, i do agree with you. however, the proven data requires you the test it and you will know it. plus, it takes some time for you to master it.
anyway, hope you will gain something from your sidemount class.

"coz I THINK I know why I need it, as a complimentary to the existing BM and to my specific dive purpose"
you are absolutely right about it.

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 Post subject: Re: Sidemount Courses
PostPosted: Tue Dec 10, 2013 11:58 am 
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Joined: Sat Mar 24, 2012 2:52 am
Posts: 36
Location: Singapore
Surya Prihadi wrote:
BotolKecap wrote:
Surya Prihadi wrote:
Scenario 1
Assume one weight down an AL80 using 1.5 kg, with tank weight on a single tank SM system.

Om Surya, tidak disarakan penggunaan weight pada tank di SM. Untuk itulah di training SM diajarkan bagaimana mensiasati problem buoyancy tangki ini dengan "gas management".



OK deh Om BK.


Now back to the physic question for SM Guru-s.

As I said, the two devices/gears which effect bouyancy because they are capable of variable buoyancy are the scuba tank AL80 and the BCD. BCD bouyancy on demand and user adjustable, while the AL80 is air capacity dependent. Please observe the variable bouyancy thingy.

Positive bouyancy speak of the entire uplift force.
Negative bouyancy speak of the entire downforce.

Proper trim speak of 3 forces needing to be trimmed......in order to....
Image
......in order to achieve a stable perfect bouyancy in horizontal position and static.

Perfect trim is a good friend of a perfect bouyancy.
One has to first achieve perfect bouyancy, the trim is the fine tuning to prevent roll and pitch.
Yaw is not an issue with a diver.

A diver underwater, has to fight the forces of uplift of an empty AL80 or downforce of a full AL80, will look like the two diaghrams below.

The problem with side mount when using a single AL80, the way I see it...... is the center of Lift ( CL ) and Center of DownForce CdF, in that particular config has two axis or fulcrum point. A BCD lies in the best position, the fulcrum of the diver, mid point. The side mounted AL80 lies to one side, and due to its variable lift at different tank state of fill, it has its own lift and downforce value, depending how full or depleted the tank is during the dive. No denying this fact.

Attachment:
analogy 1 resize.jpg

BCD-Bi = Back Inflated BCD
CL = Center of Lift
CdF = Center of DownForce
Green and red dotted lines are center of axis.


.
Attachment:
analogy 2 resize.jpg


There is no gas management in a single AL80 tank, how can there be a gas management if the source is a single tank ? I keep speaking of single AL80 tank.

Show me mathematically with a diaghram, on how to achieve state of proper equilibrium from full tank to empty tank ( total 2.1 kg worth of variable ) of single AL80 on a side mount, without shifting weights on the diver to achieve a stable no ROLL condition while static and in horizontal hoovering. I want to learn the science of it, as it would be amazing.

What will be fun to do is this :

SM Guru and BM Guru, we take both to the pool.
Both using AL80 single tank , 200 BAR. No tank boot, no tank mesh.
Both to wear full neoprene wetsuit at least 2mm, no thicker than 3mm. No need hood.
Depth will be 3 meter.
Get both to hoover horizontal at 200 BAR, 140 BAR, 80 BAR and 30 BAR tank pressure, each session at 90 seconds.
Totally breathing control only allowed. No body, hands, or fin movement. Both hands under the chin.
Fins, 90 degrees OK, straight OK, just don't ever kick or change the style.
See who has a better roll and pitch stability.

Winner gets bragging rights... :mrgreen:
Looser buy lunch... :D


SP.


you have good understanding on trim and buoyancy :)
and yes, that is a very good test for buoyancy check.

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